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This is Jay Allen Heineck, astronomer and scientific advisor to the United States Air Force.

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For the next half hour our reporters will question him in an unrehearsed press conference about unidentified flying objects,

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flying saucers in space.

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Press conference. K-A-B-C-T-V brings you an exclusive and unrehearsed interview with Jay Allen Heineck,

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asking the questions of him, a John Billby staff writer for the Herald Examiner,

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and Bill Wilkes, West Coast Bureau Chief for Technology Magazine.

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Charles George from Channel 7 News will serve as moderator for press conference, which will begin in just one minute.

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Today Dr. Jay Allen Heineck, Dr. Heineck is an astronomer.

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He is a full professor at Northwestern University and has been employed or engaged in the employment

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as the consultant of the Air Force for flying saucers in the past number of years.

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Dr. Heineck, let me put it this way. Do you believe that flying saucers exist in the...

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disregarding those reports that are apparently something that can be observed like balloons or something?

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I oppose it. The U.S. oppose it.

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I would like to clarify two things right away. One is the point of belief.

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He said, do you believe in flying saucers? I believe this is an element of faith that we're talking about.

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The word of belief, I believe, belongs more properly in theology than it does in science.

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I think we should say, what is the evidence?

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Does the evidence lead us to think that this is more probable than that, rather than do you believe?

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Because in a sense you might say, I believe in Madagascar, although I've never been there.

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I'd like to have that point clear.

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Then the distinction between UFOs and flying saucers.

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Flying saucers to me implies already an interpretation of the fact, whereas a UFO is basically a report of something that has puzzled somebody.

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Then do UFOs exist from scientific evidence?

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Most certainly UFOs as reports of tremendously interesting things exist.

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And I also want to separate the UFO from the IFO. The UFO simply means unidentified flying object.

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And it is unidentified to the person seeing it, or to a group of people.

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It cannot be unidentified to people more technically trained.

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So that you have, in the great majority of cases that I've examined at the Air Force, the great majority do turn out to be perfectly normal things.

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You might say that an IFO, which starts out as a UFO, is a usual thing seen under unusual or surprising circumstances.

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But then we are left with the residue, rather small residue, sort of like a needle in a haystack situation, of extremely puzzling cases.

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And I'd like to, for the rest of our discussion here, reserve the term UFO for this residue of extremely puzzling cases.

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What would this percentage be?

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It's less than 5% of the cases reported.

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What seems to be the common characteristic of these UFOs?

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The pattern varies widely, but they do have certain geometric, luminescent and kinematic characteristics.

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Emotions, for instance, are very easily described, but if I were to try to get a least common denominator here, just try to sum up what the majority reports.

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And I should also point out that for a long while we thought that UFOs were a peculiarly American phenomenon.

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They were sort of a post-war thing.

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A sort of hysteria, the silly season and this and that.

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And I went along with that for quite a while.

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And in fact, in 48 when I first started, I would have taken just about any bet that by 1951 or 1952 the whole thing would be utterly forgotten, would have passed with the Gulf-Egyptian craze and things like that.

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But one of the most significant things in the whole phenomenon has been its persistence.

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And not just from the United States, but from, well, well over 70 countries in the world.

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And you may ask questions, how do French UFOs compare with Brazilian UFOs?

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How do they compare with American UFOs?

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And you'd say that there are, as far as reports, and remembering that UFOs are reports.

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I'd like to get into a little later about photographs and hardware and so forth.

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But for the moment, they're reports and they have certain great definite similarities around the world.

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There have been a lot of alleged photographs and many of them are very similar.

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If we had somehow come upon photographs of late model Russian planes, I'm sure that there would be aeronautical engineers who'd be studying what their design sophistications were.

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Have engineers been studying these photographs to see what their suitability is for space travel?

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Well, the photographs, if we did get a photograph of a new Russian vehicle, we'd know in the beginning, our priority,

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much more about how that photograph was taken, what it represented, than we do when we are given a UFO photograph.

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I was asked on a similar program not too long ago, well, in which the moderator, we have a very nice moderator here,

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was getting quite mad at me for taking the, apparently taking the wind out of some of the UFO buff sales.

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And I said, well, what would it take for you to believe a photograph?

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Well, I said, I would, if I were to present a photograph in court, I didn't say we had a compression investigation or a court,

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and I had to say, do you, somebody ask, do you have a photograph that you will present?

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I would present it if the following things, I think, were true.

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If I had an affidavit from two independent witnesses who had seen the photograph being taken,

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and then if I could have the original negative and some technical data on the camera,

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some of the, the number of shutter speeds and the emotion characteristics, then I would think I'd be foolish not to believe it.

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But up to now, I have not ever received any photograph that fulfills these criteria.

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No photograph at all from any place in the world?

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No, sir, no photograph from any place that fulfills these simple criteria.

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Some come close to it, and I'm not saying, it just does not imply that all photographs are hoaxes.

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We just don't know.

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One can't help but think of the report in one of the major magazines of the two people who were apparently taking a board of spaceship and were dead.

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The dining and college.

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How do you regard that? This was up in the Northeast.

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Well, I've had the opportunity to talk with the hills, and I find them extremely normal people.

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And I, fortunately, fortunately, I get to this case, I'm happy that I'm an astronomer and not a psychiatrist,

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because I can easily say that I'm not competent to pass on the things.

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All I can say is simply that the, the hills, to me, seem to be convinced, and as far as they feel, they have this experience.

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I don't know, I could not call them liars, but whether a psychiatrist would gorge out of their subconscious

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some hidden things that cause them to think they have this experience, I just wouldn't know.

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Has financial gain come to them or to many other people who've reported things?

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Certainly not in the beginning. I think they have lately from some of their appearances, but I feel quite certain they didn't go into it for that.

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Well, your point about financial gain is an interesting thing.

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UFOs are reports. They exist as reports at the moment.

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One thing that I've often asked myself is why does a person make a report?

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What does he have to gain, except really do?

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And I get letters upon letters saying, if this will help you in your scientific work, I'm happy to send you the information.

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And these reports are quite articulate. They're not, they're not crack-parts of things.

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But they'll invariably say, I cannot permit you to use my name because I'm a teacher with my influence on the renewal of my contract.

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Or we have a child in school and we don't want him to be the butthole of sarcastic remarks.

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But they nonetheless, they have nothing to gain. They get no money for making a report, but they still do it.

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I get many letters that will start out, I wasn't going to report this or I haven't reported it for many years.

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But I feel that in my civic duty or somebody feels, if it will help scientific investigation find.

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What about real scientific investigation? I'm thinking now, not just the investigation of the UFOs per se.

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I'm thinking now of the great scientific research capability we have in this country. And this is very great.

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I'm going to mobilize for this purpose and I think it could be.

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What about investigations into some method of perhaps duplicating such phenomena?

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I'm thinking some cloud chain will work perhaps. I've seen plasma work there and we have a lot of plasma work.

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Should there be something like this done to try to see if we can't simulate or...

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That's an extremely important point here. It's just starting to be done.

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It would serve us in science and no one any good to go another 20 years and get another 10 or 15 or 20,000 reports.

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It would just really add more points on the curve. But it would add nothing new.

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But we need to go from the passive to the active phase, put up or shut up.

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I'm going to ask the US Department to do this essentially.

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By active phase, I mean, well, now look at it.

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If the policeman in a number of cases at Ravenna, at Exeter, at Monticello, at the Coro,

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and Michael Coro named a whole bunch of them, had had a camera that was loaded and they'd known how to use it,

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or if the Coro's in Hillsdale, this place is the little swamp gas place, your famous place.

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I think I should get a medal for having made the law as a household word.

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And anyway, to have these girls, they said they saw these lights going back and forth over the swampy area for more than two hours.

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It didn't occur to any of them to take a simple camera, set her on the window still, and take a time exposure.

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I mean, when each would have had something, one of the forces of this would have to meet your ambitions.

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I mean, whereby you have two observers in addition to the photographer.

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They had to meet you about early at the time, so I think we could have met that condition.

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Do we know anything about flying saucers or UFOs?

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Yes, I would say that we do.

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Good, and on that point, let's pause for just a moment for this message,

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and we'll return with the answer to that question after this.

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Our guest today on Press Conference is Dr. J. Allen Heineck.

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Dr. Heineck is a member of the...what is it, Dr. Lindheimer?

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Lindheimer has a number of students in Northwestern University.

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Dr. Heineck has been involved in the investigation of unidentified flying objects for a number of years, since about 1948.

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That's right. We'll be back there.

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I posed the question just a moment ago, Dr. What do we know about flying saucers?

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Well, and I used the term...

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I almost feel this was a rigged question, and I'm sort of glad it came up,

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because way back that summer I wrote a letter to Science Magazine

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feeling that it was time to bring this to attention of my fellow scientists.

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I've felt for a long while like some traveler to distant countries,

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and when he comes back he sort of has an obligation to describe the natives.

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Nobody wants to see a slide.

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Nobody wants to see a slide. That's right.

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So, I did address a letter to Science Magazine,

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and I'd like to...just so happens I have it here.

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There are some of the basic...this answers your question, however, I believe.

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There are some basic misconceptions about UFO reports.

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For instance, one is that only UFO buffs report UFOs.

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The exact opposite is almost the truth.

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Another misconception is that UFOs are reported by unreliable, unstable, and uneducated people.

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This is, of course, true, but UFOs are reported in even greater numbers

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by reliable, stable, and educated people.

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And UFOs are never reported by scientifically trained people.

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This is definitely wrong.

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I have some very fine reports from very well-trained...highly trained people,

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but they don't want to retain their anonymity.

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We are developing...you might say it's sort of an invisible college of...

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not only in this country, but in England, France, Argentina, Brazil,

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or maintain sort of a network of spies, kind of.

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That's the wrong word.

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Even underground is too much.

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That's sort of...scientists and anonymous who are, again, expressed in very real interest,

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but feel it because it's really cute to spill, so likely they don't want to say much about it.

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I get right back to this question.

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Now, what do we know?

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What do we know?

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All right, we know that they are reports that come from many of which come from reliable people.

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Many, of course.

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And then come from unreliable people.

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We're dealing with reports.

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We're dealing with reports.

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You want to know, do we know anything more than the reports?

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We have no hardware.

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To the best of my knowledge, and this is a wild rumor that comes up every once in a while,

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the right field has some little green men locked away in some downstairs cavern.

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Have you heard the rumor that General or President Eisenhart, one time,

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spoke with a man from a flying saucer?

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I haven't heard that one, but the rumor mill is terrific in this game.

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And there's never been an authenticated piece of hardware.

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No UFO has ever dumped anything off the coast of Spain.

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I think the source is it's never gotten in trouble, so the hardware is out.

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And as I've already talked about photographs, there's nothing tangible.

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So, of course, it is quite logical for the Air Force and science in general to say for years.

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Well, since there's no hardware, nothing tangible, not even good movies or photographs,

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why bother with it?

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Just a bunch of nuts reporting things, and of course there are nuts.

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A lot of them.

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These people who tell you they've taken rides in flying saucers and they've described conditions on Venus,

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which never agree at all with our scientific findings.

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See, if they went to Venus or Mars and came back with something that you could test,

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they gave us the temperature on the surface of Mars.

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If they gave us something about the chemical composition of planets,

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they always come back with some highfalutin story about tall, blond people

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and a great many love adventures on Venus and Saturn.

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That's what I think they pursue.

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The question I brought up a while ago.

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You say that some scientific investigation that is outside of the pure reports of flying saucer

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implying that perhaps some work is going on in the lab now.

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Did you explain a little bit of that?

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Well, the Condon Committee of the University of Colorado has been charged now with the responsibility

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of taking a scientific look at UFOs.

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And Ed Condon has worked for years, as you know, in the director of the Bureau of Standards,

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and a very solid person in the whole scientific field.

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He and his group are really taking a look at this, and I cannot speak for them, obviously,

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but I understand that they are undertaking investigations of physical things.

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For instance, such things, many, many reports come in saying that person's car was stopped.

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UFO came by and their car stopped, and when the UFO left, the car started again.

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What about duplicating the apparent to a flying saucer and say a plasma chamber or a cloud chamber?

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Some work along those lines has been done in other investigations,

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but I think you can create phenomena that would give that appearance.

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Couldn't engineers figure whether the disc in shape, for example, of a common saucer photo

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would be more suitable for space or for...

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Yeah, I think they could do that aerodynamically, but if the UFO was the one that described its intense

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bright lights turned out to be plasma, then this is really something that the A and C should know about,

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because this would go a long way in the atomic energy commission.

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This should go a long way in solving the magnetic bottle problem.

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The problem is how do you contain plasma?

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Well, if nature has figured out some way of containing plasma in 30 feet glows or discs,

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then we should know about it.

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You're quite right, it should be studied.

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I think that the Connick committee is doing precisely the best explanation you have right now

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of the so far unexplained side that you've had reported to you,

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those that you can't explain away by natural phonon or something else.

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What is the best explanation you have of flying saucers right now or do you have one?

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I think we would have to say in all honesty, if there's anything...

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Well, let's put it this way, there are, say, four large categories in which explanations fall.

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One, of course, the one that's used for so long is its own nonsense.

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There's still a slight probability that that might turn out to be the case, but I don't think so.

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Second is that it's all, there's secret weapons being tested by the government or that government.

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But that seems unlikely to me simply because it's hard to keep a secret for 20 years.

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And one doesn't test secret devices in 70 countries.

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The third is, of course, extra trust in intelligence, ETI.

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This is a popular one because it's amazing how the human race wants devoutly to believe,

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and here I use the word believe in its proper sense, wants to believe in possible health from outside.

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Or they desperately want to, they're looking for a scientific father image of this fact.

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And, of course, astronomers will go along with the idea that there is life very likely, life elsewhere,

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because it will be provisional to think today that there isn't a problem in, of course, getting and communicating.

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That's a totally different situation.

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And then the fourth possibility is that it would be, in the end, a metaphor, unknown, but perfectly natural, normal, physical phenomenon.

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And you say, well, how can this be?

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On the other hand, just put yourself back a hundred years.

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Suppose somebody, when somebody, when they were crossing the plane in a covered wagon,

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somebody had deeply began to, began to talk about nuclear energy.

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And in those days, we didn't even know, they didn't even know that Adam hadn't looked at us,

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let alone that you could get energy out of it.

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They were going to totally incomprehensible think people at that time.

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Well, how do we know?

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Just because it's 1967, that by the year 2567, we won't know things that will make our knowledge today look childish.

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And at that point, let's pause for this message.

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Well, how are we doing?

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Just recently, taken in 1952 in Pasek, New Jersey by an amateur photographer, how do you interpret that photograph?

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And are there enough of them?

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I wouldn't know how to interpret it, since I don't have the original negative.

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It's been a crop.

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We don't have any background.

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In the bottom one, there is background.

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But how do we know?

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It may be perfectly correct, perfectly authentic.

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On the other hand, it may be a hoax.

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And unless we have the original negative and the technical data on it, it's almost pointless to try to interpret it.

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And photographs really tell us anything.

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What's their property taken?

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And if we know the circumstances under which they were taken most certainly.

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And I think that the real need, and I would like to almost make a plea on Ben to knee here, that we need photographs.

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And I think particularly police squad cars should be equipped with cameras.

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Cameras are less expensive than guns.

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And if there are squad cars carried cameras, we'd probably eventually get some pictures, which means desperate to need.

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You're the principal civilian consultant to the Air Force on UFOs.

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If you were to find irrefutable evidence that UFOs came from another planet, would you be prevented from making this public immediately?

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Or would this be delayed in any way?

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Not at all.

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As a scientist and a professor at an independent university, I would have every right to say what I want.

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I would probably take counsel, because suppose if we had this evidence you say, you're hypothesizing that we were absolutely certain,

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then I think it would be important to let certain government people know first, let's say.

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But as far as whether I would be, say, muzzled, chemical-sanding, I could.

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Is anything at all classified about your investigation?

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No, the Air Force.

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I know they've frequently been accused of this, but the classification occurs when military installations are concerned,

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or sometimes when we find that a person is getting a report from a person in a mental institution or a person with a criminal record,

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it's far better to classify that report than to open this person to embarrassment.

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What about your personal view?

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From all the things you've been studying since 1948, what do you think they really are?

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I think they're very much the same, I think, from some other planet where...

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I always can lie to you, but I have to say we must keep an open mind.

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I honestly don't know what I think is that we now, finally, are coming down to a little scientific investigation of this whole matter

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which should have been done a long time ago.

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Thank you very much for being with us today, Dr. Heineck.

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Our guest, Dr. J. Allen Heineck, from the United States,

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is the greatest authority on unidentified flying objects and flying saucers.

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Thank you again for being with us.

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I hope you'll be back with us again next week at the same time until then.

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This is Carl George. Good afternoon.